Joyce Salisbury Oral History, 2005

[00:00:00] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
This is Tiah Edmunson-Morton. The date is November 1st, 2005. The interview with Joyce Salisbury

[00:00:08] Joyce Salisbury:
about the Willamette Writers Guild. So why don't we start with you telling me your name and the date and place of your book. My name is Joyce Hurlbut Salisbury and I was born in Iowa in 1928. So I'm 77 years old now. And I came out here in about 1960. I was teaching at the English Department

[00:00:45] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
at the U of O. What brought us out here? And where did you get your degree? I got my first degree in Drake and I got the Master of Fine Arts in Creative Writing at the U of O. And what year was that?

[00:01:05] Joyce Salisbury:
I think it was 1970.

[00:01:08] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And so you started teaching here in 72, is that right?

[00:01:12] Joyce Salisbury:
I think 71 or 72.

[00:01:21] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And then you stayed for many years. And you retired in 2000, is that correct?

[00:01:32] Joyce Salisbury:
That's about right. I retired about 10 years before that. But I just kept teaching one or two years. One, two, five.

[00:01:46] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And what were some of the positions that you held at Lane? Did you just teach for language art? Did you teach for any other departments?

[00:01:55] Joyce Salisbury:
No, I think I just taught for language arts department. It was basic English, you know, writing, freshman comp, and literature, inter-literature. And I designed a couple of classes in women writers and image of women in literature. And I taught those for a while. I taught creative writing as well.

[00:02:23] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And I saw that you did you teach children's literature?

[00:02:25] Joyce Salisbury:
I started out teaching children's literature. Because I had been teaching in the grade school before I got my master's. So I had about 10 years of teaching. And I taught here about 30 years.

And I also saw that you taught intro to imaginative writing.

[00:02:48] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Is that creative writing?

[00:02:49] Joyce Salisbury:
Yeah. I was just curious whether it was the same thing.

[00:02:54] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And was that, did you teach poetry? Yes.

[00:03:00] Joyce Salisbury:
Inter-lit poetry, too, as well as writing poetry.

[00:03:06] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Okay, so reading poetry and writing poetry. And were you involved in any other projects or committees besides the Willamette Writers Guild?

[00:03:17] Joyce Salisbury:
I was involved in one called Status of Women, which acronym is SOW.

[00:03:27] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Is that intentional?

[00:03:30] Joyce Salisbury:
I don't think so. But they were investigating the women's salary and comparable worth.

[00:03:43] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And was that in the seven days?

In the seventies and eighties?

[00:03:51] Joyce Salisbury:
About the seventies.

And I wanted to get a feel for this obviously is an organization that was dedicated to bringing in perhaps writers and authors outside of the mainstream in some cases. And I wanted to get a feel for the environment of the campus and of the profession during the active years of the Willamette Writers Guild.

[00:04:24] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Where did it come from? What did it, how did it?

[00:04:28] Joyce Salisbury:
I think it just started from wanting to have some well-known writers on campus. And some feeling that Eugene was being overlooked as a place for writers to visit. Portland seemed to be getting all the famous writers, like Adrienne Rich and so on. And many times they came into the state with the understanding that they would go nowhere else in the state. So we devised the system of making a consortium of seven colleges. It was over six, I can't remember. And each college put in $500 or something in the kitty. And Liesl Fenner, who was the grants writer for the college at that time, was very active in writing up the proposals for National Endowment for the Health.

[00:05:36] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And is that where the funding, did it come from Lane or was it grant funding?

[00:05:40] Joyce Salisbury:
It was matched funding.

[00:05:43] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Okay.

[00:05:43] Joyce Salisbury:
So that each college had put in some. And then we had meetings, you know, with representatives from each college.

[00:05:52] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And how were those representatives chosen? Was it?

[00:05:56] Joyce Salisbury:
I think they just chose them.

[00:05:57] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
A volunteer?

[00:05:57] Joyce Salisbury:
They raised their hands.

[00:06:03] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And how were the participants in the consortium chosen? Was it? How did it how did it come to be one day? It was just, you mean the different colleges?

[00:06:14] Joyce Salisbury:
Well, just geographically, it was the Southern Willamette Valley. And so it was Lane and the University of Oregon. And OSU and then Benton Willamette Community College up there. Which I can't remember.

[00:06:36] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Is it Chemeketa? Yes, that's it.

And so who who made the first phone call? Was it sort of a joint idea? Or was it? Who spearheaded the idea?

[00:06:52] Joyce Salisbury:
May have been me. Which is what I thought.

[00:06:56] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Without actually asking, was it you?

[00:06:57] Joyce Salisbury:
Oh, I don't know. I think I called someone at the U of O.

[00:07:05] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And and, you know, and was what was was it an open ended time period? How long did you think that it would be around?

[00:07:20] Joyce Salisbury:
Because I know that it was only really active for three years.

[00:07:26] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Was that intentional?

[00:07:29] Joyce Salisbury:
I think people were getting fatigued because we were all teaching full time.

And you had an ambitious one of the years you did a lot. There was there were three or four programs. And the problem was in juggling these speakers around to the campuses. So that involved graduate students, if possible, to shuffle them. You know, they'd speak here. Oh, speak at the U of O. And then, you know, they were not just coming to one spot. Oh, OK. So they were actually traveling from campus and doing engagements at each of the campuses. And I think Gwendolyn Brooks was in the first batch. I'm not sure. And I think she stayed at a hotel. And her comment was, you're all so white.

And you said, Audrey Lord, the next year, I think, stayed with me.

[00:08:57] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And what was that like? What was it? Did you know her before that?

[00:09:01] Joyce Salisbury:
Just her writing.

[00:09:05] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And how long did she stay with you?

[00:09:07] Joyce Salisbury:
Just a couple of nights. And so did the.

So it was almost like they were on tour. They were on tour. Like a book tour or a rock tour. It was an ambitious undertaking that was just tokenly funded by the institution. He didn't give us release time.

So they said, sure, you can do it. But it's on your time.

[00:09:44] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And how did you so how did you decide who to invite?

[00:09:50] Joyce Salisbury:
We would come up with a plan. And a lot of it was Lisa Vanner's suggestions and organization because she had the office time. But I think one year it was writing and publishing. So we had some successful writers of science fiction and agents from New York.

I know I remember it too well. Well, I noticed when I was doing research that there were a lot of poets. And I wondered if that was intentional or I like poets. But I think, too, when they are presenting, they can present their poetry much better than a fiction writer can present a book.

It's shorter. Yeah, sure. They have nothing else.

[00:10:54] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And so how did you contact how did you contact the authors?

[00:10:58] Joyce Salisbury:
I'm just curious. I can imagine now trying to you'd have to go through publishers and agents. And it was rather difficult.

I know we tried to get Adrienne Rich. And that's when she was speaking at Reed.

She was going there with the idea that would be the only place she would go. That was my understanding.

[00:11:32] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And then did you approach her and ask her?

[00:11:43] Joyce Salisbury:
Or was it a no, it was already a done deal. Oh, OK. That she was only going. Yeah, she had a tour. Oh, OK, going on. Do other places.

[00:11:57] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
So who is your favorite of the people that you invited?

[00:12:08] Joyce Salisbury:
Favorite child.

Or maybe I should. I think Audrey Lord and Gwendolyn Brooks. I taught a course of women writers. And they're such strong voices.

And in the 70s, I was working on this. stages of women in the college. And it was a problem.

Five classes. And I happened to teach you six classes that year. So I was automatically contracted.

[00:13:26] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And did that come with benefits? Yes.

[00:13:30] Joyce Salisbury:
And some security.

Now, why don't we maybe we could talk a little bit about some of the specific rather than having you pick your favorite. Your favorite flavor ice cream or child or chocolate. Maybe we could talk a little bit about some of the. I don't want to call them big names, but some of the names that pop out in these files. Like my memory is not too good.

[00:14:02] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Well, how about if we start with Gwendolyn Brooks? Is that her name?

[00:14:07] Joyce Salisbury:
Yeah, she was a very impressive figure.

Private person, I think. That is, I didn't get to interact with her personally too much. And I think she resented the fact that she was not meant met. I think we tried to meet people at the airplane. There was some shuffling there because she's so black.

Channing it or singing it was very impressive. But she did comment on the audience to the audience. About their being so white.

[00:15:07] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And what did the audience do or react?

[00:15:11] Joyce Salisbury:
Yeah, they just were.

[00:15:16] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Do you think that's changed?

[00:15:32] Joyce Salisbury:
I think it's changed.

I was active in starting heads.

The black girl was staying with her, living with her black grandmother who was blind.

Dresser would not be able to see what color socks she had on her socks.

[00:16:07] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And what about now? When did Audre Lorde come to speak? Was that part of the Women Writers Guild?

[00:16:26] Joyce Salisbury:
I think it was. And I think at that time, we worked with a women's group. I think the Unitarian Church was active with that.

I can't remember who it was with her.

Well, I'm going to pause it for a moment and get my note. I'm restarting the tape.

Well, this wasn't all the same year. No.

Let's see if there's a whistle. The event, this will help you. This is broken up. If you call each of them, could find more specifically how much of the grants were from the National.

[00:17:48] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Is it National Endowment for the Arts?

[00:17:50] Joyce Salisbury:
Yeah. NEA, National Endowment for the Arts. I know that for one year or two, they were helping Sunday.

I think it's at the very bottom of that page.

[00:18:15] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Oh, you're Watkins? Sylvia Winter?

[00:18:19] Joyce Salisbury:
Oh, yes. And Pat Warner. So some of these people were from San Francisco. And they were powerful to me. Audre Lorde could just chant her voice. It was so powerful. And that was, they presented down in the basement of the poet.

I remember some of these people.

I think Gwendolyn Brooks was in the first group.

And Richard Hugo was together in my memory. Well, it's a diverse group, too. Just in investigating, I noticed that there were a lot of poets, but there were white poets, black poets, male women, men, women. This first one was interested mainly in writing and how to publish. That's why we had so many different kinds of publisher, a screenwriter, Paul Schrader, who wrote Taxi, an essayist, Richard Costellano, an agent. But that included Liam Gass, Richard Hugo, Gordon Rich, and Gwendolyn Brooks.

It must have been quite an active period. It seems like to imagine bringing these people together for just one of these things, but you did shuffle them around. And I didn't realize that. That's even more impressive than to have done three or four things in the space of 18 months in addition to teaching. Yeah, because they would have to be present in Corvallis and Salem, as well as Eugene. Maybe there's just one presentation in each of those places, and either the community college or the university.

It involved a little free time given by the graduate students and so on.

Yeah, this is W.S. Merwin and John Ashbury. They were interesting people.

[00:21:42] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
What sticks out in your mind of making them interesting, or what was interesting about them?

[00:21:50] Joyce Salisbury:
Their poetry is very compelling, and John Ashbury I remember seeing up in our lounge in the English department, so they met with our English teachers, as well as just making the presentation. And they might meet in our classrooms. And speak for the students. And Robert Creeley was into specifics so much. And William Stafford was a dear friend, or was a dear friend.

[00:22:34] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Yes, tell me about that one.

[00:22:37] Joyce Salisbury:
I'm referring to the young F.O. experience. Realities of the close encounters. Now, he is an engineering or was an engineering teacher at Stanford or someplace in California. And I think it was, but he also, on the side, got interested in people who had been visited by aliens from outer space. And interviewed them and could hypnotize them into being very truthful about the experience they had. And so he believed that they really had been there. That the aliens really had abducted them for a day or two.

[00:23:31] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And so were there times then when he dispelled that truth?

[00:23:36] Joyce Salisbury:
I don't think so. Not to say anything about his hypnosis technique. Or the existence of alien life form.

[00:23:46] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And was that tied in with the science fiction, how did that?

[00:23:53] Joyce Salisbury:
I think it must be tied in with a science fiction thing. I don't know if it occurred the same year, yeah. Same year. So it must have been part of the science fiction. It seems appropriate. But I think he'd be insulted at being called science fiction. That's true. That is. That's true.

[00:24:18] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Does he still write?

[00:24:20] Joyce Salisbury:
I have no idea if he's still alive. He was a friend of geography law.

Was also a jet pilot over Vietnam. And for 20 years or so. And he had some weird experiences as well. So he...

[00:25:04] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Did he speak?

[00:25:06] Joyce Salisbury:
No. Oh. It's just that he has written about that. Some unexplained sightings of something.

He could have had a dual presentation. That's right. An even bigger conference.

[00:25:23] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Right.

[00:25:28] Joyce Salisbury:
So why did it... I think when I was... Well, let's stick to the, I guess, talking about the people before I ask you about the why it ended. Why don't you tell me a little bit about...

[00:25:40] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
China Sole? Is that how you say her name? Why don't you tell me a little bit about her?

[00:25:44] Joyce Salisbury:
Because I know we started doing some investigating about her and she sounds like quite an interesting person. No, she's a dear friend.

I really admire her. She came here, was teaching at LCC and got her PhD in comparative lit at the same time she was teaching here. And she came when we were hiring in the English department. But she came as a result of being a recommended by the president.

[00:26:36] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And where did she come from?

[00:26:38] Joyce Salisbury:
I think she was teaching in Alabama that time.

[00:26:52] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
A writer for the UN? Did you find a news article about it? Yes, it was a article.

[00:27:26] Joyce Salisbury:
And tell a little bit we were talking before the taping started about her marrying in Africa. As far as I know, I never did ask her about this personally, but she was married to an African man. And they were, or he was, involved in one of the political factions that was fighting for power in that country. And I'm not sure what country it was, but it seemed like something.

He was killed and she was captured with the wrong party. But she's American.

[00:28:30] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Yes, she's an American.

[00:28:32] Joyce Salisbury:
She was born in New York City. Her real name is Pat.

It went on with SNCC at San Francisco. She was teaching there. Before she came here. Yeah, before she went to Alabama. Oh, right, right.

[00:29:08] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
So she was active with SNCC?

[00:29:12] Joyce Salisbury:
SNCC.

We could make it up, but it probably wouldn't be right.

So she was, I can't think of the other woman who was very well known about that.

I just admired her writing.

[00:29:59] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And did she come here with the interest in getting a PhD? Or did she come here and then decide to get a PhD?

[00:30:08] Joyce Salisbury:
I think it was both things.

And so it was nice that she could have,

[00:30:20] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
did she teach full time?

[00:30:22] Joyce Salisbury:
And she was part of the language arts department. That's right.

[00:30:28] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And so did she present at some of these? Was she active in the Willamette Writers Guild?

[00:30:34] Joyce Salisbury:
I think she was active in helping us.

Racism and sexism.

That was in 1983.

So she knew the big people to ask.

[00:31:01] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
The big name to ask?

[00:31:05] Joyce Salisbury:
Well, I think we all knew that. But she knew the people who had been writing on those issues, Gloria Watkins and Sylvia Wynter and Pat Warner,

not fiction and not poetry, but articles on racism and sexism from a black perspective. OK, it's the title. These are political writers. And if you don't have the list in front of you.

And so China Soles stayed here until the mid 80s and then went down to San Francisco. I think she was, she may be head of the Women's Studies Department there. I'm not sure. I'm sure she's very active.

[00:32:23] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Is she still teaching?

[00:32:24] Joyce Salisbury:
I don't know. I think she retired in 2003. I think she came up recently. I was talking to Linda Danielson, and she said that China Soles was coming. And I said, but she comes into town once in a while.

[00:32:46] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And does she speak or visit people?

[00:32:47] Joyce Salisbury:
Yeah, she speaks at Mother Callie's bookstore. OK, and she's still writing. I should think so.

She's still being active, I'm sure. It looks like it. It looks like it. It seems like she's not one of those people that retires and stops. She retires and does more, perhaps.

So I guess we talked a little bit about this earlier.

[00:33:32] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Why the Will Island Writers Guild? Why isn't it still here? Is it, why did it end?

[00:33:38] Joyce Salisbury:
I think the people that were active in it got tired. Because we were teaching full-time as well. So, and I think Rachel Fenner had tapped the financial sources for as long as she could, although I'm not sure of that. If I was to move on, putting more money into it, I don't know. I don't know how that happened. And what was it, how, this is, I suppose, a bit of a digression,

[00:34:17] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
but how was it, how was it received when it was here? What was your turnout like? What, did community members come? Was it primarily students?

[00:34:28] Joyce Salisbury:
Students and community members, we did advertising.

There was a presentation, I think maybe this was before, the performing arts building, over in the other building,

as the room was open.

It just seems like you were inviting people and talking about things that were so topical at that time, and I still are. It was a period of much more active politically because of the women's rights issue and the black rights issue than now. Things are kind of, you've kind of gone underground, partly because of the failure of the Equal Rights Amendment.

And, oh, go ahead.

Well, I guess I wondered, did the group and the people you invited come out of that, come out of the Equal Rights Movement and the Black Rights Movement,

[00:35:53] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
and was that, was it intentional, I suppose?

[00:35:57] Joyce Salisbury:
Well, I think that that's what we were interested in besides being interested in the poetry and the writing and how to get published. And we wanted our students to have a broader experience, too.

It's interesting to me that, I guess, after studying the collection, I was just really surprised that it didn't click and that, I mean, it seemed like you were, you had such well-known people and it was such a productive few years. Yeah, well, I think we, for one thing, I think we learned that the name we'd chosen for Willamette writers belonged to another group in Portland. Oh, okay. I saw that. I didn't know if it was connected. Well, they notified us that we were... That you were not connected. But, see, we were using the word guild, so it doesn't, but we could have said Southern Willamette writers. It was funding in the name. The other one.

[00:37:23] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
What kind of acronym would that have moved?

[00:37:26] Joyce Salisbury:
OGG. That would go with SOW.

Yeah, I guess I'm just... It was... We're just, if you think about the women's rights issue, when that equal rights amendment was about to be passed in Illinois, there were women holding out onto the gate at the Capitol of Illinois legislature and people were chaining themselves to the gate. So it was an issue that the women felt strongly about. And when they didn't pass there, backlash...

[00:38:21] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
In the 80s, would you say?

[00:38:26] Joyce Salisbury:
And what about through the...

[00:38:28] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
So what about the, I guess, the rest of your time here?

[00:38:32] Joyce Salisbury:
Did you... I know that in the early 80s, there was a... At least in your files, there's a sort of resurgence

when you brought in the black women writers. And then after that, that seems in 84. I think that's the last... I think that your papers here end in 84.

[00:38:55] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And what about since then?

[00:38:56] Joyce Salisbury:
I think younger people have taken over or have not taken over and we're not as interested.

And my interest has always been for the underdog. And that's why I was involved in women's issues.

Grade school, it was very black. And she could write and sing and do art. And I early learned that they are really...

That's true.

[00:39:56] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Now, so why did you stay?

[00:40:04] Joyce Salisbury:
Because my boys grew up here and to bring eight wide effort in grade school was active. And getting that group started was about people in a committee that worked for the kindergartens. I came from Iowa where I taught two years.

Managed to teach them all to read. But they had all had 10 or 80 or something.

One time they had what I had.

It was a class thing. And they had PTA kindergartens for which parents paid. But if their family didn't have that money, then their kids didn't have the things. So I worked to get the state changed. And I walked along Montgomery, I think it was, religiously or from here or south of here. And he said he agreed in preschool. He thought it was great for his children. And when you reach that kind of level of disagreement that something is great for his children to get a head start. You can't go beyond the topic.

[00:43:00] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
And do you think that's changed?

[00:43:01] Joyce Salisbury:
I guess it reminds me of charter schools and that movement now. I'm against that, too. But I mean, it seems like the same, I guess part of the same mentality of. Getting what's best for my children.

[00:43:17] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Right.

[00:43:17] Joyce Salisbury:
Better than the other children.

[00:43:19] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Right.

[00:43:21] Joyce Salisbury:
What you can afford and having the government help you not go to public schools. Anyway, that's. That's another issue. That's right. That's right. And so what about what. And we finally got free public interest in 1972. That's probably where I was. Was there was there. I know now there's an active preschool. Head start that. And I wonder if was that active.

[00:43:59] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Was there anything like that that you would you pay for a preschool before that?

[00:44:03] Joyce Salisbury:
Before there was. Then I guess Head Start is. Yeah, they had the first the Congregational Church had preschool. But you paid for it. And they had two years of preschool. You know, in fact, the other were PTA kindergarten,

whether the school was located in an affluent area where the parents could all afford to finance a PTA. Kindergarten and the teacher.

It was very classist.

Wow. And so at that time. Eugene was smaller. And was there.

[00:44:57] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Was there a big divide, a bigger divide between the classes?

[00:45:02] Joyce Salisbury:
What was the.

It was always subtle. You couldn't see it. But you could see it in the classroom.

That's interesting. I was educated here. So it's interesting to.

[00:45:22] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Where did you go to school?

[00:45:23] Joyce Salisbury:
I went to school. At Howard. Colin Kelly. And North.

I'm in North Eugene.

[00:45:39] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
So what about the rest of your time at Lane?

[00:45:42] Joyce Salisbury:
Did you then put. Your extra energy. Your non teaching energy into. That side. I mean, obviously you've stayed involved. Politically, if not in the.

[00:45:59] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Literary scene, or do you feel like you've stayed involved? Is there a literary scene to stay involved in here?

[00:46:09] Joyce Salisbury:
I try to get to see that there is a. Speaker Cummings or whatever.

[00:46:35] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
What did you write?

[00:46:37] Joyce Salisbury:
Mostly poetry.

Learning every time.

And what. What do you think the lasting impact of. Us having this collection here and having it so that.

[00:47:26] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
What do you want people to know about what was going on?

[00:47:29] Joyce Salisbury:
Why they should be interested in look back and. What's the.

[00:47:36] Tiah Edmunson-Morton:
Or what's your what do you think your legacy at Lane will be?

[00:47:41] Joyce Salisbury:
Probably already has been. But if they. If they investigate this and wonder about. Why we were so interested in these wires. I think if they started reading some of them. They would know. And it was. They are live. And they are still alive. Even if they did. If you read their works.

And they are a way of seeing. That we don't often see. We don't think of poets do that.

Well, it's an amazing collection to have here. Just having gone through it myself. It's amazing that this is happening. Here. And I'd like to see an article.

It seems very topical. I guess that's what. When I went to graduate school in English and we're still reading some of these people and I. It's exciting I guess to come back and see that. There were groups everywhere that we're really trying to. 30 years ago. 20 years ago. And it seems very. Yeah let's get the calculator. But it seems it just seems interesting that this is this is here and this group was here. It's a very it's still very topical when we see. Not necessarily I guess to focus on the black white divide but to see. Hurricane Katrina just happened and what. I think the black white divide is a good thing to focus on. Because the hurricane Katrina. Certainly pointed up the difference right here. And that they don't want to employ blacks in rebuilding but they want to employ grounds. It's.

Spanish people in early two.

It certainly it it exposed it in a way that I don't know. In many years it's been exposed and. It's there racism is there is alive and well so is sexism. Do you think it was more was it more on the surface in the late 70s and early 80s and then. Went under and did you see it sort of popping up again or is it popping up now again.

It's always been more actively fighting flash the nail.

And do you think something like Hurricane Katrina will make us. Will make people rise up again do you think that. People are too complacent they don't care they don't care.

What let me look at the and what. What was the most important thing that you think you did it like while you were working.

My interaction with students beyond their usual.

Presentation.

And did you how did this is a little off topic how how did you see the students changing were they. I guess throughout throughout your time here I mean you were here long enough to see. A change or not a change or.

There were Vietnam vets. At first other kinds of teaching. I guess that there yeah.

And have you I know you called last summer have you have you used this collection why. I guess I'm a little bit curious I know these were left in someone's office. And what was the. Well I kept the folders because I was interested in these writers and I wanted. Somehow the history to be there no longer had. Energy or time. I mean none of us had we were not encouraged by. The powers that be home here and the interest of somebody.

Other voices basically. Settlement middle class we don't see poverty even. And it's here for the biggest on the street world. Put this out there in the vast expanse of the world wide web and you never know. Well do you have anything else that you want to add or want to talk about or that I didn't ask you. Anything that when I think I rambled a bit that's good that's good that's what we want. Anything that you thought of. When I contacted you about doing this that you thought. I hope she asked me about or I hope we talk about. No I remember hoping that you had a list of the writers. I should have shown I should have given it to you if where we even started. I know it was it's quite a list I found it once I actually grouped them according to. I found something somewhere that. Must have been flyers that had what each person was involved in the event they were involved in and that made it much more manageable when it was.

Well I have books from this person and this person and this person you know I have. Everybody's books.

Like a good English teacher you have lots and lots of books that's how it's.